Rogue Irish Cheesemaker ([info]thebratqueen) wrote,
@ 2008-04-22 21:13:00
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Current mood: annoyed
Entry tags:rants

Ironically an icon of George Bluth would be more on topic
You know, I'm so glad that we finally live in a world where men can feel empowered to touch women's breasts as though the ability to do so is their god-given right.

Oh WAIT.

You know, I get that the Open Source Boob Project (or "NAMBLA") was about asking and not randomly groping, and blah bloo blee, but wow is that not the point.

To paraphrase Gavin DeBecker, if you ask a man when was the last time he worried about his safety the usual answer, assuming the guy doesn't live in a war zone, is going to require some thought and maybe he'll come up with something that happened in the past year or so. If you ask a woman the same question the usual answer, regardless of where she lives, is going to be a variation on "Well, what time is it now?"

There's a reason why it's not a woman waxing poetic about imagining a world of no heaven, hell, and full of freedom for men to assume they can attempt (and yes, asking is an attempt) to touch her without negative repercussions. And that reason is "We have vaginas and live here already, dicksmack." Our bodies are already assumed to be not our own. We get in a crowd of some kind, we're at a packed club, we're going to the ladies room at the local baseball stadium - we don't know if some jackass is going to think it's okay to play Handsy McGetTheFuckOffMyTits. And if it's not flat-out sexual harassment it's still crossed boundaries. It's being told we should smile even if we're in shitty moods, or finding out that one of the joys of being pregnant is that your stomach now belongs to anybody who cares to walk up to you and give your belly a rub. Tell me even one way that men have to deal with random strangers walking up to them and touching them without permission. (Seriously, I'd love to know.)

So if anyone out there has noticed that it has maybe possibly gotten a little bit more difficult for you to get your hands on a woman's breasts I recommend you stop bitching about it and spend a moment thanking whatever diety you might believe in that there are now increased odds that someone will not kick you square in the nuts.

Now naturally there are so many levels of WTF about this that we could be talking about it forever, but one item to be filed in the "even when you're wrong you're wrong" category is the idea that breasts were the issue. As one commentor put it:

Why the hell shouldn't I be able to go up to someone and say "You know, your breasts/ass/hair/face is really beautiful, can I touch it?", and have them have the right to say yes or no, without threat, shame or implied demand. Just a simple question, like "Can I have a sip of your soda?".

Uh dude? Name me the last time you went up to a random stranger and asked for a sip of their soda? Because I'd love to know what restaurants you've been hitting up. Now while we're on the topic, when was the last time you walked up to strangers and asked if you could touch their elbow? Their shoulder? Their knee? We've got societal norms on what contact is and isn't appropriate upon first meeting someone and if you have half a brain (which may be a large assumption on my part) you know there's a reason for that. Start with a fucking handshake why don't you? (Or maybe even asking their name. I know [info]theferrett left names out of his post on purpose but why do I doubt that the majority of folks who got asked about their boobs were also asked about their names and favorite hobbies?)

And I love the whole concept of how it's a beautiful thing where folks can ask to touch breasts and breasts can, in fact, be touched. Like it's the second part that really makes it empowering for all us women who somehow doubted that if we offered our tits up to a heterosexual male he'd turn it down. Especially at cons which are certainly never known to have large male vs. female ratios. I'm surprised that Opsen Source Blowjob Project never got off the ground, what with the similar doubt we women have about whether we'd hear "Yes" if we offered them.

As for the girls who were fine with it, and wore green pins, and feel it's perfectly fine to let strangers ask if they can touch their breasts: GO AHEAD. We're not stopping you. As I said, you're not going to lack for folks to take you up on the offer. You do, in fact, have the freedom to do that. Mazel tov. We're just saying that we're not going to hoist the flag and declare the problems of the world solved when someone tries to start a movement to make boob-groping easier. There's a reason why it's hard as a default. It's called "Some of us would like to be able to sleep at night."

Christ people make me tired.



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[info]ladybug218
2008-04-23 01:28 am UTC (link)
Marry me?

You can touch my breasts whenever you want if you say yes...

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[info]thebratqueen
2008-04-23 01:29 am UTC (link)
*Touches you*

*Also touches your icon*

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[info]ladybug218
2008-04-23 01:32 am UTC (link)
*molests your icon*

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[info]wesleysgirl
2008-04-23 01:28 am UTC (link)
Christ people make me tired.

Word.

All I can say is, if a stranger or acquaintance comes up to me and asks to grope my breasts, Wesley is going to get busy with his big stick.

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[info]thebratqueen
2008-04-23 01:30 am UTC (link)
Seriously. LORD people are et up with the dumass.

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[info]havocthecat
2008-04-23 01:42 am UTC (link)
Aren't people stupid fuckers sometimes? I hate the world tonight.

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[info]thebratqueen
2008-04-23 01:44 am UTC (link)
I was stuck with stupid people all day. I didn't need to come home to it. And yet, here we are.

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[info]havocthecat
2008-04-23 01:08 pm UTC (link)
Hopefully the stupid will die down soon enough and we can all get back to the business of fangirling. :)

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[info]marainsanity
2008-04-23 01:44 am UTC (link)
Yes, yes, a thousand times, yes.

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[info]rhi_silverflame
2008-04-23 01:44 am UTC (link)
I kind of love you a little extra now. Like more.

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[info]thebratqueen
2008-04-23 01:45 am UTC (link)
*bats eyelashes*

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[info]cheesygirl
2008-04-23 01:45 am UTC (link)
Unless a guy is David Tennant, there will be no man groping Cheesy's girls!! And since David's a Gentleman and a Considerate Human Being, he'd have the decency to get to know me first, unlike many of the walking penises on this earth.

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[info]timjr
2008-04-23 01:51 am UTC (link)
Word. You are quite wise.

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[info]snglesrvngfrend
2008-04-23 01:52 am UTC (link)
Your use of "dicksmack" and "McGetTheFuckOffMyTits" had me laughing loudly.

The rest of it just had me cheering. You are, of course, completely right. Some people just totally FAIL.

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[info]thebratqueen
2008-04-23 02:00 am UTC (link)
OMG username love.

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[info]snglesrvngfrend
2008-04-23 10:49 am UTC (link)
Whee! I love Fight Club; s'my favorite book.

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[info]journalkitten
2008-04-23 02:01 am UTC (link)
Is it awful of me to be a little glad all that happened because I got to enjoy your rant so much?

Oh, and there is one case in which I've seen guys get constantly man-and-woman-handled with or without permission: brand new buzz cuts. I've seen it time and again when a co-worker gets a buzz cut - everyone wants to cop a feel. I actually wonder if guys sometimes consider all the head rubbing they're letting themselves in for before the clippers fire up and whether that ever influences their choice.

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[info]thebratqueen
2008-04-23 02:02 am UTC (link)
I was wondering if maybe bald guys had a smiliar problem.

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[info]butterflykiki
2008-04-23 02:17 am UTC (link)
According to someone on one of these posts, yes. One guy said he'd consider it if asked, but people who touch with out asking get batted away with extreme prejudice.

But he is a guy. and therein lies a huge difference.

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[info]roadnotes
2008-04-26 09:07 pm UTC (link)
I can tell you that bald women do, definitely. And it makes me grab hands, bend fingers backwards, and ask loudly, "Where were you raised?" as I contemplate breaking bones. I am not a public access body.

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[info]kyuuketsukirui
2008-04-23 10:57 am UTC (link)
I've recently started buzzing my hair and thankfully have not gotten that reaction. My husband likes to rub it, but I'm fine with him touching me. Anyone else, hell no.

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[info]tzikeh
2008-04-23 02:10 am UTC (link)
There are so many things about this that enrage me, and so many posts I've read that remind me that no matter what I'd like to believe about the world I live in, I'm actually pretty much powerless against people who think this way. And they run things. And they have for a long, long time. And they're STILL NOT GETTING IT.

I have to take issue with your "go ahead" for the women who thought it was fine, or fun, or funny. They, just like the guys who are all on it, are part of the problem--part of the institutionalized default to "women are objects to be owned". They only reinforce the idea that women who object to it are "dried-up" "hysterical" "feminazis" (amazing how many negatives we can pull from words pertaining to women), because hey, it doesn't upset *them*, *they're* fine with it, and they're *women*, so something must be wrong with *you*.

They need to be educated just as much as the little boys who can't get over the fact that once they were weaned, boobies were no longer their personal property.

And if they can't be *educated*, then just like the men, they need to be *schooled*.

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[info]ladybug218
2008-04-23 10:42 am UTC (link)
Totally off-topic, but OMG ICON LOVE!

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[info]tzikeh
2008-04-23 12:03 pm UTC (link)
You know what? OMG ICON LOVE! is *never* off-topic. I have declared it so.

Now come here so I can grope you. Obviously it's what you want.

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[info]ladybug218
2008-04-23 01:14 pm UTC (link)
You know what? You're absolutely right.

Thank you for enlightening me.

[and I feel the need to friend you now, because clearly you are made of awesome :)]

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[info]tzikeh
2008-04-23 01:18 pm UTC (link)
:) Right now, my lj is mostly made of boring, but of course you are welcome to share in the dull!

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[info]lucifrix
2008-04-23 10:15 pm UTC (link)
If I'm interpreting your argument correctly, women also shouldn't give head, because then men get the idea that all women like those things and think women who aren't interested are prudes. And that is such total bullshit.

It's absolutely wrong to expect a woman to restrict herself because of the goofy ideas some other people will formulate in response. If these women wanted to be touched, more power to them, and if men start thinking that women who refuse are prudes, we have to educate those men, not scold the women.

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[info]bkwyrm
2008-04-23 02:13 am UTC (link)
Amen.
And as I pointed out to someone tonight, my husband of ten years doesn't get to just walk up and grope me. I'd smack his glasses off if he tried, and he knows it. I have, let's say, issues, with people touching me without permission. Not from assault, but from long hospital stays, painful physical therapy, and surgeries. But I'm probably just frigid, right? Besides, it's way more important that men not be made to feel uncomfortable than it is that I have bodily integrity, a right to personal space, and the ability to walk down the street without fear. What an entitled jackass that guy is. ARGH.

Edited at 2008-04-23 02:16 am UTC

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[info]phoenix4
2008-04-23 02:20 am UTC (link)
If I had ever gotten pregnant, I really planned to get a T-shirt that said, "Touch the belly, lose a hand." My husband doesn't even come up behind me and grab me with no warning; the first time he tried when we were dating, I swung around like Muhammed Ali and nearly flattened him before I realized who it was. My personal space bubble is the size of a ballpark, thanks to childhood issues.

Bill Engvall calls breasts "the one thing that can make a six-month-old baby and a sixty-year-old man react the same way." I'd like to give the other half of the human race a little credit for intelligence and enlightenment, but lord they make it hard sometimes.

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[info]butterflykiki
2008-04-23 02:21 am UTC (link)
God, yes. I have been hostile all afternoon and evening since I read this. Hostile hostile hostile. Just call me Psychobitch, thanks. Considering that I have done physical damage to guys for stuff they've said in passing, never mind asking me crap like that?

He acts like all the little Afraid Women just don't get that he was trying to Help Them Make a Better World, and like the only thing he's learned is that We're Not Ready To Talk About This. He doesn't get WHY we reject the idea out of hand. Nor does he seem to think there's Anything To Get.

Why can't I hurt him...? Oh yeah, same reason setting up crap like this is not acceptable. We have rules for a reason. Darnit.

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[info]dancetomato
2008-04-23 02:25 am UTC (link)
When I lived in Japan, one of the first words I learned was the Japanese word for "pervert." Especially on crowded subways men had no compunction about rubbing your breasts or ass or, in my case once, having a guy rub his hard-on against my ass when I couldn't turn around and stop him. (Turns out, "YOU FUCKING BETTER GET YOUR DICK OFF ME OR I'LL FUCKING PULL YOUR DICK OFF YOU!" works no matter what language.) Once when my grandmother came to visit, she and my aunt were walking down a crowded sidewalk, a business man reached out and grabbed my aunt's breast as he walked by. The sad part is that it was so common for American women to be groped that my aunt just kept walking while my grandmother gaped.

Our male coworkers always thought we made too much of it. They argued that while it was bad form, we weren't actually in danger from the men (Japanese men usually back down when confronted, and we were taller and heavier than most of them anyway) and we were making too much of it.

Then one morning Coworker T. came in looking very upset. He explained that he was sitting in the seat right next to the door of the subway, and when a guy was getting off the train, he reached down and copped a feel of Coworker T.

But you weren't in any danger, we said. It really didn't hurt you, we said.

His response? "But I felt so violated!

He seemed surprised that we weren't more outraged on his behalf.

*ironic use of icon*

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[info]archanglrobriel
2008-04-23 02:42 am UTC (link)
As far as the whole Open Source Boob project, as I said on someone else's journal, I don't have a lot to say other than devolving into Margaret Cho-like inarticulate screams. I just...there are no words...
And the fact that this monumentally anal cranially inverted, entitled, testosterone addled, arrested development dickspittle cock monkey went to great lengths to assure everyone that "it wasn't like that...really...it was just about males groping random women's boobs for fun during a Con..." just made me want to spit nails at him until his testicles were permanently affixed to a chair ala Angel Heart.

But I digress.
You asked:Tell me even one way that men have to deal with random strangers walking up to them and touching them without permission.

So I thought I'd tell you that this happens to me a LOT in gay spaces or in spaces where it's assumed that everyone is cool enough with the gay folks in the room that they can act...inappropriately. I get groped so much while moving through the crowds at Pride that I've gotten downright flinchy about even going.
God forbid I go to somewhere more sexually charged than just "on the sidewalk at Pride." I had frickin' hand prints all over me the one time I went to Folsom.

I don't know what it is about me that invites this kind of thing.
I'm not attractive in a conventional way. I'm short and very chubby. I have a big Indian nose and hair that refuses to stay in anything resembling a style. I have freckles. I don't have an ass to speak of...but apparently I fall into the category of "approachable" to the point of offense.
It doesn't happen to Soren nearly as much (although it does happen to him too, and for some reason he's much more likely to get forced, unwelcome kisses when it does...*shudder*). I'm some kind of Dick Troll Asshat magnet. So I get pinched and fondled and groped by strangers and I HATE IT.
I really, really, really hate it.
And when I complain about hating being groped and fondled and generally handled when I do not want that... I get told that I'm just saying that, that secretly I like it, that I'm just bringing it up because I want everyone to know that it happened to me and I'm just bragging. Plus I should be glad they do that, because it means that I'm still "hot" and "in the game." Like it's flattering. A compliment.
Or I get told that I'm lying about it. Or exaggerating. Or the person I'm telling it to gets jealous (this has happened to me a lot with other gay men). Or that I "took it the wrong way."
Or my least favorite of all - that I give off some kind of invisible "vibe" and that by continuing to focus on how much I hate it, I'm bringing it upon myself.

Thank gods I have Soren to back me up on all counts.
Needless to say, I have massive, endless empathy for what women face on a much, much greater scale. I have so much loathing for that sort of thing that again...there are no words. But I did want to point out that Asshat Men Behaving Badly is apparently a constant and appears on this side of the fence too.

To paraphrase Charlton Heston..."KEEP YOUR HANDS OFF ME YOU DAMN PERVY CREEP."

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[info]tltrent
2008-04-23 02:37 pm UTC (link)
Came here via [info]frenchroast's LJ, and I just must say I am in awe at your Powers of Invective. Totally awesome!

Sorry that you have to endure the grope-age when you're just trying to enjoy a day out. Maybe you should make a T-shirt of the Heston saying and wear it to Pride. :)

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[info]mallyns
2008-04-23 02:51 am UTC (link)
The only people who are allowed to touch my breasts without asking are little kids. Not in a sick way, but you pick up a child under 3 and they tend to touch your breasts because they are there and where else are they going to put their hands(well for me I think it's because mine are so freaking huge).

Hell, I don't even like to touch my own breasts, and they are mine.

I don't know why guys are like this still. Maybe we women should start our own project and just go up to guys and slap them with a clue 2X4.

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[info]lumenara
2008-04-23 03:12 am UTC (link)
You've probably already seen this one: http://misia.livejournal.com/1055120.html .

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[info]honorh
2008-04-23 03:15 am UTC (link)
Men just don't get it so many times. "Why's it so bad when men whistle and catcall at attractive women? It's a compliment! If a bunch of women started whistling at me, I wouldn't mind."

Um, no. Missing the point, which is, quite simply, biology. While it's possible for women to rape men, it's not exactly easy. Men have the aggressive sexual organ. They're generally larger and stronger than women. So, in order to be equivalent, either these mythical cat-calling women should be very large bulldykes holding dildos--or it would have to be other men catcalling at them. Puts a different shine on it, no?

Same concept. I wonder how these "May I touch your boobies, plz?" guys would like it if a large man came up to them and asked to grope their asses.

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[info]kita0610
2008-04-23 03:17 am UTC (link)
I'd like to touch his penis with my bowie knife. Again and again.

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[info]the_red_shoes
2008-04-23 04:31 am UTC (link)
I'm surprised that Opsen Source Blowjob Project never got off the ground, what with the similar doubt we women have about whether we'd hear "Yes" if we offered them.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh just YES. Yes, yes indeed.

We're already all wearing the damn green pins. All of us.

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[info]fishsanwitt
2008-04-23 05:08 am UTC (link)
God. I have no words, only a large bat to hit with.

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[info]frenchroast
2008-04-23 06:18 am UTC (link)
As you so rightly pointed out, if it's so great, why are the women the only ones who get to be objectified? And then there's the implication that it takes men telling women they're beautiful to make it count for something. Screw that.

I'm renaming it the Open Source Complete Prick Project.

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[info]kate74
2008-04-23 08:00 am UTC (link)
Right, so I went and read the original post. He's a dickwad, that much is certain. Doesn't surprise me that this thing came about at a con. Every one I've ever been to has been full of people being *ahem* affectionate with one another regardless of whether they know one another that well. In the real world - seriously uncool idea.

Just FYI, there is a charity that uses plain round green buttons for a campaign in this country. Does this mean I'm gonna get randomly felt up if I visit?

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[info]tltrent
2008-04-23 02:38 pm UTC (link)
Via [info]frenchroast. Great rant! Thanks! :)

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[info]zillah975
2008-04-23 09:00 pm UTC (link)
This is an awesome post. Thank you for making it.

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[info]mylenn
2008-04-23 10:32 pm UTC (link)
This is a great post. You laid out your thoughts and reactions a lot more coherently than mine would have been. some people are just *fuckwits*.

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[info]freyalorelei
2008-04-24 03:21 am UTC (link)
I was thinking just today about the Motor City Comic Con, and planning to wear my cute little fishnet shirt under my cute little lacy corset, and generally get my pretty on, because clothes are nice to look at and fun to wear, whee!

And this guy makes me want to show up in a muumuu and steel-toed boots. Or maybe just not go at all.

It's bad enough to have your bodily integrity threatened on a daily basis simply by virtue of existing. Now this asshat is recruiting.

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[info]anomilygrace
2008-04-24 03:45 am UTC (link)
Honestly - and I say this as someone who was at PenguiCon and someone who is friends with some of the ConCom and organisers, if I were planning on going to Motor City Comic Con, I wouldn't change any of my plans.

For one thing, [info]theferrett won't be there (afaik), and for another, as much as he's been talking on about it and as much attention as it's gotten on the internet (and as horrid as the idea really is), it was a tiny, tiny, tiny thing among a group of friends that never expanded to the whole con. Thankfully. I doubt it'll be repeated.

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[info]clover_elf_kin
2008-04-24 07:43 am UTC (link)
I love you for reasons that go far beyond this rant.

Honestly! If this were going on in my area (...presuming it isn't, I haven't looked) I'd get a button that said "No, and you'll get a swift kick in the groin if you ask." I'm all for a society that's more genuinely sex-positive rather than prudish yet obsessed, but THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO GO ABOUT IT!

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[info]rubynye
2008-04-25 03:02 am UTC (link)
The one silver lining of that foolish project is all the awesome responses from people who stood up and said, "you know what? NO." This is an absolutely kickass post, and I applaud you for it.

Now may we come to a day when you wouldn't've had to have written it.

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[info]100wordspermin
2008-05-15 03:08 am UTC (link)
I realize I'm late to the party here, but I just want to note how much I love your response to this particular bit of asshattery.

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